TV Sluts Threeway, OJ Simpson Edition

Hello, Readers! As we are wont to do from time to time, your TV Sluts have joined forces to collectively discuss The People v. OJ Simpson: American Crime Story. The miniseries, the latest from Ryan Murphy and co. and following up on the success of American Horror Story, profiles the trail surrounding the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman in 1995. What did we think of it? Find out... 

Please let there be aliens... please let there be aliens...

Arsenic Pie: SLUTS ASSEMBLE

Maggie Cats: WOOHOO. That's the secret; we're always slutty.

Clovis: Slutty, slutty assembling.

AP: But we are not always assembled and not always slutty in the same place in time and space. Who would like to begin? BECAUSE OMG

MC: General thoughts?

C: So much racism! So much sexism!

AP: It was, much like the case itself, a train wreck. In that I could not look away.

MC: I remember when the trial was happening, I think I was...14? But most of the broader cultural implications were completely lost on me.

AP: Also: Kato!! What what what was he on?

C: Kato was criminally (see what I did there?) underused.

AP: I see what you did, and I appreciate it.

MC: That pun was a crime.

AP: Yeah, I remember it all happening, but I also paid zero attention to it. If punning you is wrong, I don't want to be right!

C: I remember classes in my high school shutting down so that we could watch the verdict being delivered. Even in small town lily-white MI, it was a thing.

MC: I think the main things I took away from the show was how ridiculously underprepared the prosecution was for the defense's strategy and how Marcia Clark was eviscerated in the media. Basically for being a woman. That enraged me.

Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

AP: Well, that hairdo was pretty bad. I had no idea she was a rape victim.

MC: Me neither! I wonder if that came out in the book she wrote after the trial.

AP: And I also didn't remember/know that a tabloid published a nekked photo of her. Because what do you do when there's a lady lawyer? You slut shame her OBVS.

C: Duh. Ladies practicing law? Pshaw! Who ever heard of such a thing?

AP: Next you'll tell me they let the womenfolk do the doctorin’. That just ain't natural.

MC: Seriously. It kind of opened my eyes to the progress we have made even in the last few decades. Though stuff like this still happens, but nowadays I think there would be backlash.

C: I was really glad to see how they treated Marcia Clark as a character. Which is to say, I thought they showed really well that she was always in a damned-if-she-does-damned-if-she-doesn't place.

MC: I absolutely agree. Any character with Kiss From a Rose as their theme song is OK by me.

C: Oh Man, we need to talk about the wondrous ‘90s music employed in this show.

AP: I was also interested in the way they portrayed her. They showed her as someone who was really trying to do her job and get at the truth, and not as a famewhore. Who was Johnnie Cochran. Who is the biggest famewhore in the history of famewhores BT Dubs. And that actor’s portrayal was spot on. 

Real life v. Hollywood. Brother from another mother?

MC: Absolutely. She did an impossible job AND was in the middle of a custody battle. That's brutal.

C: Agreed, but I also liked that Johnnie Cochran was a complex character himself. Like, he was a total famewhore, but one who did have a very clear guiding principle that wasn't just around his own self-aggrandizement. (Though, that obviously was a factor as well.)

MC: The guy who played Cochran [Courtney B. Vance] has been in a lot of Law & Orders and is always great. I was psyched when I saw he was playing that role.

AP: I remember when I started watching it, I looked up who was playing Cochran because he nailed it. He was really the stand-out for me, acting-wise.

C: Totally. I had to keep reminding myself that he wasn't actually Johnnie Cochran. And on the other end of the spectrum WTF John Travolta?

AP: I know, right! Oh, he was baaaaaad.

MC: OMG that was so weird! Sarah Paulson for me was the real stand out.

AP: Yes, she was excellent.

MC: Was Travolta supposed to be bad though? Like, was that the character? He was just so swarmy.

C: It was like watching a demented sad clown trying to be a lawyer. Krusty would have been a better choice.

AP: I am so over Travolta. And was he wearing a bad make-up job or is that is face now?

MC: He is plastic fantastic. I actually thought he was fabulous as that character; but that's because we aren't supposed to like that guy either.

AP: It was a departure for him, but I can't say I'm a fan of his acting. Just kind of chewed the scenery a bit. It was a bit too much.

Pennywise wasn't this disturbing.

MC: CAN WE PLEASE TALK ABOUT DAVID SCHWIMMER? He was great.

AP: YES! YES WE CAN BECAUSE HOLY SHIT ROSS IS ROBERT KARDASHIAN!

MC: "Juice...Juice..." It was crazy. So basically OJ Simpson is responsible for the Kardashians. THANKS,OJ.

AP: And that is why OJ is currently in prison. He *was* good, I have to say. But I was always distracted by his skunk hair.

MC: That's what that guy's hair looked like though!

AP: No wonder Kris cheated.

C: What did you guys think of the decision to incorporate the Kardashians into the story? Obviously, they're trying to say something about what fame does to people.

MC: I had read the showrunners were specifically setting out to show the cultural impact of the trial. Example: Kato.

C: And the Kardashians are obviously one of the biggest components of that.

Next season on American Horror Story...

AP: I thought the scene with the little Kardashians was good foreshadowing. Like, you could see Little Kim plotting to become famous somehow. Overall, you could see that the show was addressing the cultural shift.

MC: It certainly did not paint a flattering portrait of most of the LA rich people.

AP: It was kind of the first time there was wall-to-wall coverage of a murder case, and it wasn't because people were interested in it legally or wanted to see justice done, they just wanted to be entertained, and the media complied.

C: Agreed. It seems to me that the big takeaways the show wanted us to, well, take away were the danger in obsession with fame, the problem with putting justice essentially to a public vote, and the very real and very much still pervasive mistreatment of minorities by white people in power.

MC: Absolutely. The whole thing had a "last days of Rome" feel to it.

AP: It was bread and circuses all the way.

MC: Everyone had a stake and an opinion on it. It was like a perfect storm with the race issues, celebrity, and salaciousness. Fo sho

C: I mean, Chris Darden's last speech to Johnnie Cochran even lays it out when he says "[the police] are still going to keep right on killing us." They may as well have had a flash forward to a Black Lives Matter march.

AP: And don't forget the domestic violence angle. Because yes, the cops were racist. And yes, Mark Furhrman is kind of a Nazi. But that doesn't take away from the fact that OJ beat and terrorized Nicole.

MC: Since I didn't follow the actual case closely as a kid, a lot of the facts of the crime were a surprise to me. Like how the LAPD failed at every possible step of the way. The prior beatings and abuse were a shock to me as well. It was so awful.

AP: They completely failed. That was one part of the case I knew about. I knew about that and the glove, and that was about it.

MC: I think the show also worked to keep the focus on the victims, something the trial was not able to do. Like, "hello? Remember the people who were brutally murdered?"

C: But weirdly, we never saw the victims. Which, for a Ryan Murphy show, I was really surprised by given that he never met a bloody body scene he didn’t love to film. We see flashes of two bodies in the first episode, but never their faces. It’s not until the show ends that we even see any representation of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.

AP: I actually thought that was a good choice. It was respectful to the victims not to cast them as Body 1 and Body 2. It was better to just let the real victims be...the victims.

C: It seemed to me like the show was trying to make a point about how much the actual victims were left behind in this process.

MC: Totally agree. This was actually the strongest Ryan Murphy show I have seen. I think because it was limited run, completely mapped out in advance, and based on real events. Keeping the Dad and sister of Ron (I think?) front and center was smart.

C: Yeah, because he was bound by facts and couldn't throw in aliens in episode 6. Just for funsies.

AP: True or False: Aliens would have made it that much more intriguing.

C: I maintain that John Travolta was playing his character as an alien. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

MC: False. Truth is stranger than fiction. Also, Hahahaha, word.

AP: I think we may have a solid theory going. I mean, Homeboy is a Scientologist. I'm sure he thought aliens factored into it somehow.

MC: Oh, lord.

C: "Aliens did it" would actually probably make a more believable defense strategy than the one they actually presented.

AP: "If I Did It," by OJ Simpson. 

Please note that this is an actual book. 

MC: So, I have to ask. Do you guys think he did it? I have never expressed an opinion because I never thought I knew enough of the facts.

AP: I still don't think I know enough of the facts, to really say for sure. I would say he probably did it, but I also wonder if there wasn't someone else involved.

C: I think, based only on what I know from reading, that yes he definitely did it.

MC: How about this: do you think OJ believes it was someone else? The way he was portrayed it was like he honestly didn't know why he was there.

AP: Yes. That I believe. He might have done it in a fit of rage, and then honestly blacked out.

C: I think OJ probably doesn't have a realistic impression of his own mind. Which is to say, I think he knows he did it, but in his head the reasoning for it is so constructed and explained away and rationalized that he effectively believes that he did not do something he did.

MC: I would believe that; or convinced himself he blacked out. Right--and justified. Since Nicole was "his." It was creepy how he always called her "my Nicole."

C: That's what makes his whole case fascinating in my mind: I think he's pretty clearly the killer, but the case lived and died on the very real issue of institutionalized racism.

AP: And he really got off because the cops were so incompetent.

MC: It was like, the jury let this one black man go who actually committed it in response to all the black men who were convicted and innocent. And, to be fair, that is a legit reason to get off.

C: For me, the show hit it best in the last episode in a scene between Johnnie and his wife. His wife effectively says that OJ very likely did the crime that he was accused of, but the reason why she's proud of Johnnie is because he shined a light on how terribly African Americans are treated by the police in this country. Even if OJ didn’t deserve to go free, the attention his case brought was still a good thing. The case was an imperfect one, but the issue it raised is one that needs to be talked about, basically.

Justice, LAPD-style.

MC: Our justice system is designed around the idea it is better to let 10 guilty men free rather than imprison one innocent man. 

AP: Or the jury may have believed the defense. They might have actually thought that they knew what cops were like, and in their minds, it's totally reasonable for cops to plant evidence.

MC: Which we all know is now how things go down. I totally agree with Clovis. And like we noted, the police fucked this up royally.

C: I don't believe that the jury "threw" the case, for lack of a better word. I'm pretty convinced that the jury members honestly believed that he did not commit the murders.

AP: No, I don't think they threw it either. I think they honestly thought the cops planted evidence. Because the jury was comprised of African-Americans, and cops have planted things on African Americans.

MC: Well, you don't have to believe he was innocent. You just have to have reasonable doubt. I'm not sure I would have convicted. Even if I believe he did it. Reasonable doubt is not that high a bar.

C: Exactly. They had enough experience with the LAPD to easily believe the police were corrupt and that it wasn't beyond reasonable doubt that they could have framed OJ. Hence, acquittal. 

MC: The defense definitely called a lot of the evidence into question; and remember, this was basically the first high profile use of DNA. There was no CSI. People were like, whaaaaa?

C: Also it shows how you have to be careful telling a story, right? "Please listen to this long, droning explanation of science" isn't as compelling for people as "these racist corrupt cops tried to pull a fast one on you."

MC: Exactly. The show did a good job of showing how the jury was totally not getting it--nobody wants to hear 3 days of some scientist blabbering on.

AP: No, if it's not in layman's terms, nobody is going to care.

C: So what do we think were the things the show did best?

AP: THE CAR CHASE. With OJ and the gun and the screaming = Hilarious. You can't make this shit up. That's why it's so good.

Traffic on the 405 this morning: Light with a few backups due to fugitive activity. Normal Tuesday, folks!

MC: It definitely told a compelling story. And I thought was pretty honest while still being dramatic.

AP: The script was compelling, and the cast was committed.

C: I thought they did a really good job of taking a period piece and connecting it subtly but solidly with issues that we're seeing today. And that it didn't have the usual Ryan Murphy hallmarks of weird shit happening just for fuck's sake.

MC: For sure; I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of everything. But it still felt soapy enough that it was entertaining.

AP: It was really quite addictive. Nobody was phoning it in, except Travolta, who was coming to us live via satellite from his auditing center.

MC: He was with his alien overlords so distracted.

C: Travolta's thetans really deserve an Emmy nod for this one.

AP: And he'll have to donate half his Emmy to the church. And Lord Xenu. And Tom Cruise

C: IT'S CALLED TITHING AND HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO GO CLEAR WITHOUT IT?!?

MC: Don't forget Nathan Lane. So random! The casting in this was so weird and so awesome.

C: How much fun did Nathan Lane have playing an uber straight dude? I mean, really?

AP: I loved Nathan Lane. He was basically playing Ken Starr.

MC: But David Schwimmer definitely wins for most random. And great. But I thought he only directed stuff now. He hasn't been in anything for a while. It was a great role too--I found his whole arc about doubting OJ's innocence and struggling with that really compelling. What would you do if you believed your best friend murdered someone? I mean, we're all cool with it because TV Sluts united forever. But it must be hard for normal people.

C: We're going to be blogging from prison, let's face it.

AP: They let you have internet time in Gitmo, right?

MC: I bet Arsenic Pie goes first. She'll get put in the slammer for speeding tickets and they'll ignore all the real crimes you've committed.

AP: FOR THE LAST TIME, PUNNING IS NOT A CRIME! You know I'm going to bust some kittens out of a university science lab and it'll be the big house for AP.

MC: 20 to life, bitch. You'll get your comeuppance.

AP: Fortunately, I learned to fashion a shiv from watching Downton Abbey. Anyway, back to it, OJ didn't seem like OJ, casting-wise. He's supposed to be a pro football player, right? Why was the actor they cast so fucking tiny?

MC: Well, he HAD been. He was retired at that point.

AP: Right, but he didn't shrink. He was physically too small for the role.

MC: It's pretty common for pro athletes to gain a lot of weight after they stop playing.

C: I thought Cuba Gooding Jr did a good job, but agreed that he never quite nailed OJ. Like, he just didn't quite become the part the way Courtney B Vance did for Johnnie Cochran or Sarah Paulson did for Marcia Clark.

MC: I actually think is a good thing to talk about--because the show didn't seem to want to take a stance on whether OJ knew he did it or not. So I don't know how much Cuba was given. It's hard to walk that line. 

AP: He did a good job being Cuba Gooding Jr. He didn't seem physically imposing at all is my point.

MC: The first few episodes of showing how he could get very unbalanced. I would have like to have seen him rage out.

AP: He didn't go all the way into how scary OJ supposedly could be.

Unclear if this is a compliment to OJ Simpson or an insult to Cuba Gooding Jr.

C: Maybe the reason for that is because the show was trying to be agnostic about his guilt or innocence. I mean, it's notable that we never once see any kind of recreation of the night in question, which would have been easy enough to film.

MC: Agreed. The audience is definitely supposed to make up their own mind. So it's difficult for an actor to play that role when the story never specifically tells him whether he did or not. He has to be convincing both ways.

C: And that fits with the idea that the show really isn't that interested in OJ himself, it's interested in the questions raised by the case (and trial) and what the cultural fallout from it was.

MC: BOOM. NAILED IT.

C: Thanks. I am incredible, aren't I?

MC: It's this kind of hard hitting analysis people expect from us. Also poop jokes.

AP: And Scientology jokes. Cuba did a fine job acting-wise. He just seemed kinda there. Like, he's not as tall as OJ, and not as muscular, and he didn't have that same physicality. Which, even if the focus isn't on OJ, OJ should still have been more of an elephant in the room. He just wasn't.

"Yes, you, young man. Would you mind trying on the gloves of this famous football player?"

MC: Yeah, agreed. The 8 previous calls to the police for domestic abuse is kind of a hard fact to ignore. The whole thing is just awful. Everyone failed Nicole in this circumstance.

C: The thing that was probably most heart-breaking to me was the scene of the Goldman family silently walking back to their car, hearing the news reports of people celebrating throughout the city and then asking "what do we do now?"

MC: Absolutely.

AP: You sue. That’s what you do.

C: Which has always been the thing that brings me back to the guilt or innocence question when you think about OJ. If he didn't do, someone did and that someone has never been pursued. Of course, the reason why is because the LA DA honestly believes that they found the killer and there's no one else to pursue, but hey. Double Jeopardy, everyone!

MC: But then when we say things like that, I want to roll my eyes and be like, of course we know who did it. Which kind of throws my whole "I haven't made up my mind yet' thing out the window.

AP: The defense did do a good job of pointing that out. That no other suspects were ever considered.

MC: Any final thoughts? 

C: I'm interested to see what next season is. This is an anthology series, after all.

AP: I would like to see them do the Steven Avery case, actually

MC: Charles Manson? Lizzy Borden? Good stuff about women in there.

AP: Nothing will top Christina Ricci though.  The Christina Ricci one was such a hot mess!!

C: I would love a season focused on the Chicago Murder Castle and the World's Fair. (Devil in the White City stuff.)

MC: As long as they focus on the murders and not the architecture. Zzzzzzzz

AP: I think this is a good series. So long as they keep attracting high caliber actors.

C: That's the real benefit of an anthology. You can get really good, big names because they don't have to sign away seven years of their lives. It's basically just shooting a big movie and then they can come back next season if they want to.

AP: Yeah, not too shabby to get Bruce Greenwood on board. I have a crush on him.

C: Didn't he play Captain Pike in the NuTrek movies?

AP: YES!

Dreamy

MC: I have a crush on David Schwimmer now.

AP: I'm telling Rachel you put moves on her man. I'll hold her down and shave her head.

C: It's hard to come back from Rachel. She did a number on all of us in the 90s.

MC: Yeah, Greenwood was great as the DA! He's very handsome. Though he seems short.

AP: He's 5'11"

MC: Someone has IMDB open.

AP: LIKE A BOSS. Anyway, overall, very good. Very compelling. A couple casting hiccups, but really well done

MC: I think it's fair to say we all enjoyed the hell out of the show. Both as entertainment and for raising conversations about broader issues. It certainly is a huge flashpoint in American history.

C: Yes. TV Sluts agreement.

MC: TV Sluts hooooooooo!

TV Sluts: Live! And in Person!

Clovis originally wrote the beginning of this post...and then had to leave town for work. *sad trombone* So I'm actually posting it (I'm = Maggie Cats) and writing the introduction to the introduction. Got it?

Oh, whatever. Just go with it.

Clovis:

Two things happened this week that are both rare and heavenly: Haley’s comet will make a pass-by to earth (no visuals, but there was a meteor shower!) and three of the TV Sluts managed to find ourselves in the same room at the same time. What did we do? Watch television, natch.

Damn, those are some good-looking tv bloggers. From left to right: Arsenic Pie, Maggie Cats, and Clovis.

Arsenic Pie, Maggie Cats and I all caught the first two episodes of Salem, WGN’s bloody and provocative new thriller set in Salem, Massachusetts during the infamous witch trials. How is it? Well, it ain’t your father’s Crucible, that’s for sure.

Salem covers the real history of the witch trials in only the broadest of strokes, something we should frankly expect from a show that takes one of the most poignant episodes of the real horrors of fear-mongering and suspicion in early American history and goes, “yeah, but sexy witches are totally more fun, right?”

Obviously the show places fast and loose with the facts, but fans of history and Arthur Miller will recognize some of the high points – In this incarnation, we see the events through the eyes of John Alden, a soldier who has recently returned to Salem after a long time as a POW in an Indian camp, to find Salem has become a hotbed of witchy activity. John Alden is not to be confused with John Proctor, the upstanding moralist in Arthur Miller’s play, but in real life is one of the contemporaries who wrote about the witch trials and thus how we know many details about that event. (Fun fact, he’s also my great- great- great- great- great- great- great- great-grandfather. True story.)

So who’s leading this sudden upsurge in witchery? Unbeknownst to everyone but us viewers, it is Mary Sibley, John’s former love who has married into wealth and power in his absence and apparently also developed a taste for witchcraft after having a magical abortion in the woods. Yes, you read that right – this show doesn’t just go there, it has a summer home there plus a timeshare with options on New Year’s. In the first two episodes alone we see Mary’s demon abortion, apparitions of an Old Hag attacking a teenage girl, a demon orgy in the woods that looked like something out of evil Burning Man, a frog that is repeatedly expelled and shoved back into a man’s body, and a broomstick appropriated to a use that is far from its traditional expectation.

Watching Salem is kind of like this.

In short, Salem is what American Horror Story: Coven should have been – utterly crazy, completely unafraid of gore and terror, and willing to go the extra mile to bring the squicky and the sexy into the same room with each other. I make no secret of how much I enjoy watching train wreck shows – for that reason alone, I’m going to keep up with this one. But what did the other TV Sluts think of it? Take it away, Ladies…


Arsenic Pie:

Will you all think less of me if I say that I liked Salem? I didn't like it in an "OMG this is so thought-provoking and riveting" way, but I liked it in more of an, "OMG. This is so awesomely ridiculous that I cannot look away" way.

Aside from the completely anachronistic "I call bullshit" line from our hero, John Alden, I was interested in how the show mixed fantasy with actual events. It's an interesting take to say, "No, there were legit witches in real actual Salem doing all kinds of bad in order to get rid of people they didn't like" instead of the intense Arthur Miller "Joe McCarthy is an asshole" theme. I think that we are more familiar with the latter, and with the teenage Abigail Williams as the primary accuser. I'm not actually sure which character in the show is supposed to correspond with which character in The Crucible and which character in The Crucible corresponds to real life. I will defer to Clovis on that point.

I am more familiar with the play (English major what) than I am with the actual people in Salem. The Crucible was Arthur Miller's own particular brand of fan fiction, and he took people from the real trials and put them in his play but I'm not really sure how that translates to historical fact. Giles Corey, a character on Salem, appears in the Miller play, as does Brigid Bishop, who I believe at least gets a mention. In the play, Mercy Lewis is just one of the little nasty Salem accuser girls and not the one who is "bewitched" and it's Betty Parris who becomes bewitched. So, I did like that they changed things around. The play does rather beat one over the head with its morality stick whereas the show is morally ambiguous. Also, there are a lot of gross-out moments on Salem, which, sadly, there is a deplorable lack of in The Crucible.

ANYWAY, Salem also diverges from The Crucible in that its protagonist and primary accuser is a grown-up LADY, Mary (forgot her last name). In The Crucible, obviously it is the teen bitch-whore Abigail Williams. Mary, the only inexplicably English and posh colonist in Salem, was a member of the poorz and a SCARLET WOMAN because she was having RELATIONS with John Alden and she became pregnant. Enter her BFF Tituba (who is never hot in The Crucible, but she's gotten a teevee makeover), who is a witch and she convinces Mary to give up her baby to the forest in exchange for what turns out to be social elevation. Mary ends up married to some really old man, but no fear. She totally keeps him under wraps BY SHOVING A MAGICAL FROG DOWN HIS THROAT to keep him quiet. Mary's entire agenda is to punish the swells of Salem for keeping her down all those years, and I am pretty sure she's hoping that the witchy folk can take over Salem and build like Hogwarts or something. Anyway, she's a horrible human being.

I think the most interesting character thus far is Anne Hale, who is the daughter of Reverend Hale. She is both UPPITY and FORWARD, and is not content to work on her sampler. Oh, no. Girl wants to hit on John Alden and draw photos in the graveyard. Shocking. I think there's a lot of growth potential for her character, but her arc is a bit predictable at this stage. Cotton Mather, who leads the witchcraft investigation (legit -- how was that ever a thing?), is kind of an idiot and a hypocrite at this point, albeit hot, so I would like to see some more development with his character. As for John Alden -- I don't know. He just kind of reminds me of Russell Crowe.

Survey says: I think I will keep up with it unless it completely jumps the rails. Well, I think it already sort of went off the rails, so if it goes off further into Dracula land, I may give up on it. It kind of reminds me of Sleepy Hollow in the sense that it's mixing historical events with fantasy while being aware that the show is kind of silly.


Maggie Cats:

You guys. This show is crazy. And by that I mean crazy awesome. But seriously, it's also just crazy. The first two episodes alone fulfilled my "WTF" quota for probably the next 6 months. It's like somebody went into my brain and plucked out all the things I wished a show would be but was too embarrassed to admit, even to myself.

I went into Salem with no prior knowledge; I can't remember if we ever read The Crucible in my high school (we must have, right?) and I don't think I ever saw the movie with Winona. The actual Salem witch trials never really featured heavily in my interests, despite the fact that I was a History major with a semi-focus on early America. So I can't speak to the, ahem, historical accuracy of the events...though I am pretty certain that the Salem witches weren't real witches, so from my perspective the show can basically dowhatever the hell it wants. AND I LOVE IT.

Clovis described it as a train wreck, but I tend to disagree. Unlike American Horror Story, which basically throws every ridiculous plot device at the screen and sees if anything sticks, Salem unfolds in such a way that I think the writers know exactly what they are doing. The plot may be insane, but it doesn't feel random. Sure there's buckets of blood, sex, demons, and all the other good stuff, but it none of it feels out of place in the world the writers have created. And yet, it still manages to shock and surprise.

In short, Salem is not for the faint of heart. But if you enjoy the macabre, the surreal, and adult themes (i.e. sexy times!), and aren't squeamish, I think Salem might be the show for you. You know us TV Sluts will be watching.

Our impression of the banner at the top of the blog. 

Salem airs on WGN America (check local listings for stations) on Sundays at 10:00pm EST.

Mad Men Threeway

Yay, so Fourth of July weekend. Since I am not stuck working 11-hour days for the present moment, AND SINCE IT WILL NOT STOP EFFING RAINING, I decided that I would be able to sit down and post our first ever TV Sluts Three Way, brought to you by Mad Men and Don's complete meltdown. Seriously. Someone send me a vacay.

 Remember when Don told a room full of Hershey execs that he was raised by prostitutes? Those were good times.

Her name was Lola. She was a showgirl. 

I'm sure you've all been able to have some time to process your thoughts, so here are ours.
Maggie: Hurray!

Clovis: Hey, can everyone see me?

 Maggie: Yup

 Clovis: w00t Arsenic Pie, you there?

 Maggie: Arseeeeeniiiiiic.

 Arsenic Pie: I am here. I was finishing up with a student.

 Maggie: TV Slut threeway!

 Arsenic Pie: I told her I liked Lady Gaga. And she shrieked in my ear.

 Maggie: God, ESL students take FOREVER

 Arsenic Pie: Legit shrieked. She was super stoked.

 Maggie: I mean, what? Arsenic Pie: You have no idea

 Maggie: Haha.

 Clovis: Twelve lines in and we're already inappropriate.

 Maggie: There goes my food empire, I'm a racist.

Quiet, bird. I'll deal with you later. 

 Arsenic Pie: feel like we're off to a good start.

 Maggie: Hurray! So, Arsenic Pie, I dub thee in charge, since you are the Mad Men expert du jour.

 Arsenic Pie: YAY I'M THE QUEEN. Okay, so. OMG. Where to start?

 Maggie: TRUTHTELLING and CONSEQUENCES. That was what I got out of it.

 Arsenic Pie: Holy crap. I loved how the Hershey meeting turned into Don's therapy session. I mean, let's be real. Don needs a ton of therapy.

 Maggie: It was the anti-Kodak carousel speech, right?

 Arsenic Pie: But not in the chocolate meeting!

 Maggie: Is it wrong that through that whole meeting, I just wanted a Hershey bar? Hershey is my favorite. 

Arsenic Pie: I dislike Hershey. It is too sweet.

 Clovis: Funny, I wanted a prostitute. What can you do? 

Arsenic Pie: I like dark chocolate. I'm sure that could be arranged, Clovz.

Maggie: FOCUS, TV SLUTS.

Arsenic Pie: I wonder what Aimee is up to these days. Still deflowering 14-year-old boys. With her withered old hooker hands. ANYWAY.

 Maggie: Sigh

Clovis: Well, on that (and seriously)... I was impressed that I think this is the first time in the show Don has, like, told the truth about something.

Arsenic Pie: I feel as though Don has grown. Maggie: I know! That was exactly what I was thinking!

Clovis: I mean, it's one thing for Megan to know his past. But it's totally something else for everyone else. He has grown, but that growth is showing how far down he really is.

Maggie: Other than when he told a few people about the Dick Whitman thing, but this was like honesty about FEELINGS. And then, oops, he gets canned.

Arsenic Pie: You always root for him (at least I do) because he's this horrible cad who lies and cheats his way through everything, but he always somehow manages to come out of it relatively unscathed. But OMG he felt more human and less of a tool. I felt bad for him. That scene at the end with Sally made me want to cry.

Maggie: That was so cold when that dude with Duck was like, "Going down?" Burn! The girl who plays Sally is amazing.

Clovis: HAHA IKR?

Maggie: Remember when she said she didn't know anything about him? That look she gave him at the end, when he finally revealed something about himself...perfect.

Arsenic Pie: OMG I wanted to hit Duck. Where did they dig him up, anyway? I thought they fired Duck ages ago.

Clovis: See, I'm from the school of thought that I want to see Don fall, so I kind of got some glee from watching him get effectively shit-canned.

Arsenic Pie: Oh, that girl has MAD acting skils. I felt like Don was going to fall eventually, but I thought it would be more in a lung cancer way.

Maggie: Also with the sick burn: Bert Cooper.

Clovis: Or liver failure.

Arsenic Pie: Or a heart attack. Really.

Clovis: Which might be where they're going now that Don's got the DTs before a meeting

Arsenic Pie: As a side note, I did like how Ted revealed his dad was a drunk. Ted is like almost the anti-Don.

Maggie: Ted is exactly the anti-Don Clovis: I feel like Ted is what Bobby could be if he grows up okay.  I read an article where Matthew Weiner said that explictly. 

Arsenic Pie: They should whip a goatee on Ted. Did he really? I did not see that article. Clovis: That makes sense. He's Don's foil a lot of the time. Plus they both use Peggy, but at least Ted is more honest about it. 

Maggie: http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/24/mad-men-finale-matthew-weiner/

Arsenic Pie: Because Ted could totally leave his wife for Peggy, but he chooses to stay with his wife. The Total Draper Move in that situation is to leave the wife.

Maggie: Except for when he lies about leaving his wife to get in her pants. I was SO MAD at him. Because I adored Ted...up until then.

Arsenic Pie: Or the Total Roger Sterling Move. I thought for a second that maybe he meant it, but when he went back to his wife I was like nah. He's not gonna leave his wife for Peggy. And poor Peggy. Man. 

Maggie: Peggy needs to get with Stan and stop being with unavailable guys. Stan was so adorable in his suit, waiting for Don. A

Arsenic Pie: It's what Peggy does. I love me some Stan. I hated Abe.

Maggie: Agreed.

Clovis: I actually thought they were going to have Peggy pull a role reversal on Ted

Maggie: His hair was bloody stupid.

Arsenic Pie: Abe was awful to her. He was so hairy and annoying. 

Maggie: I would have stabbed him MONTHS ago.

Clovis: Like, have Peggy be all "Well, thanks for the sex. Now get it. Mamma wants to sleep."

Arsenic Pie: I loved that she used a BAYONET.

Maggie: Peggy is old school.

Arsenic Pie Like who does that? Peggy Olson. Who has a bayonet? No one.

Maggie: I am going to add that to my OK Cupid profile. "Once stabbed an ex with a bayonet, because it was handy."

Arsenic Pie DO EEET I was totally expecting Peggy to be all over Ted and not kick him out. She wants a guy so, so, so bad.

Maggie: Can we talk for a moment about her amazing pant suit?

Arsenic Pie Or she thinks she does.

Clovis: I loved her line about "Well, isn't it nice for you to have decisions."

Arsenic Pie OMG HER PANTSUIT Yeah, bc she feels like she has no choice.

Clovis: YES! I was saying to AP earlier that it was cool that she was the first woman to see on the show wearing pants to the office.

Arsenic Pie: She has to be a career woman, not because she's Ms. Feminist, but because she knows she can't get married.

Mr. Shaw, you're trying to seduce me. 

 Maggie: She will have ALL the decisions now. The pant suit never lies.

 Arsenic Pie: I hope she takes Don's office. And is like, "This shit is mine."

 Clovis: I hope Don has to ask her for it back in season seven and she says no.

 Arsenic Pie: Side note: Did Ted get the office that Lane offed himself in? I think he did.

Maggie: Haha. I have a feeling though that Duck might get the office...

Arsenic Pie: Duck owes Peggy.

Maggie: I mean, it is still 1968, I don't know if we'll see a female head of creative.

Arsenic Pie: For sleeping with him.

Maggie: Oh, ew. I kept thinking about that too. Duck and Peggy. Girl has made some bad decisions. 

Arsenic Pie: I think she should sell hard for that job. She really has. She really has. I feel Duck owes her. 

Clovis: Peggy will still be reporting to Ted, according to Joan. But still, Peggy has pretty well positioned herself. Arsenic Pie Why did they ask him back? They fired his ass. Methinks Ted isn't going to interact with Peggy much.

Maggie: Do you think they will split next season between NYC and LA?

Clovis: They didn't ask him back - he was bringing in the other candidate that Roger chatted up in the Detroit airport back a few episodes ago.

Arsenic Pie: And she will end up ostensibly in charge and then unofficially in charge and then in charge. Ooohhh. Okay, I missed that part. But he'll worm his way back into their good graces.

Clovis: Oh totally. Duck is kinda slimey.

Maggie: KINDA?

Arsenic Pie: Duck is way smarmy.

Clovis: Heh. Word.

Arsenic Pie: They should have a smarm off

Clovis: Between Duck and Pete?

Arsenic Pie: Between Duck and Bob Benson. BOB

 Maggie: Whoever leaves the slicked slime trail wins.

 Arsenic Pie: BENSON

 Maggie: I love Bob!

 Arsenic Pie: GIVE IT UP FOR BOB BENSON

 Clovis: BOB BENSON WINS EVERYTHING!!!

 Arsenic Pie: How much do you love him???

 Maggie: He won a frilly apron! And is Joan's Big Gay Best Friend!

 Clovis: Seriously, I loved Bob Benson for his showing up Pete

 Maggie: Hahahah, that was amazing. I feel like he could go crazy, ala Single White Female though.

 Arsenic Pie: He totally showed him up and he's TOTALLY going to figure out Roger is Kevvy's real daddy, if he hasn't already.

Clovis: The thing about that was that Pete has never had to fight for anything in his life - everything's been handed to him and he doesn't know what it means to actually push for something. Bob clearly has those skills and has been using them for his entire career. Bob is also like the new and improved Don Draper

 Maggie: Sidenote: does the agency have ANY kind of vetting process for job applicants??

 Arsenic Pie He's Don 2.0. I don't think so, no. I mean, they hired Don.

 Maggie: : My point, that is it.

 Arsenic Pie: And Peggy got promoted for helping with one or two campaigns.

 Clovis: Maybe they should spend less time banging secretaries and more with their HR department

Arsenic Pie: Yeah, but that would take all the fun out of it. I think they just hire people they like and don't look into their resumes.

Maggie: Clearly. I need to work there. I can be Joan 2.0.

Arsenic Pie I want Don's bar.

Clovis: I'll take Roger's. He seems to have a rum thing going on.

Maggie: Well, then that's agreed.

Arsenic Pie: I want to be Scarlett, Pete's beleaguered secretary.

Maggie: When TV Sluts opens their corporate headquarters, we all know our place.

Arsenic Pie I love Roger. He's just such a rake

Maggie: I love John Slattery, the Silver Fox.

 Arsenic Pie: Like an unabashed, unapologetic rake.

 Clovis: I love how he's becoming outdated and doesn't really let it bother him.

 Arsenic Pie: John Slattery ftw.

 Clovis: Like, Don's worried about losing his mojo. Roger just figures if the ladies don't get him, that's their loss because he's such a catch.

Maggie: He could not give two shits. He has worn that same three-pieced suit style for 30 years, thank you very much.

 Arsenic Pie: This is why we love Roger.

Maggie: That's how I feel about my dating life. (NOT).

Arsenic Pie: Roger is the Honey Badger of Mad Men. Roger don't give a shit.

Clovis: I keep saying that the point of this show is which characters are going to make it through the 60s and which will be tanked. Roger is clearly going to make it, only because he doesn't care.

Maggie: I live in constant fear that Roger will have another heart attack.

Arsenic Pie: I am afraid Ted will kill someone with his plane. Like his wife.

Clovis: Heh. How convenient for Peggy!

Maggie: Or himself?

Arsenic Pie: How much did you love Ken Cosgrove getting Dick Cheneyed? Or all three?

Maggie: Up until this episode, I full on loved Ted. Now not so much. Poor Ken.

Arsenic Pie. I know. Poor Ken.

Clovis: I just want Ken to go write his novel.

Maggie: Remember when he had to give up his writing? Arsenic Pie: I thought he was dead.

Clovis: You know it's what he wants to do.

Maggie: His science fiction novel!

Arsenic Pie: It totally is, but he got married and has to support a kid. Yes!

Maggie: The scene of him tap dancing might be the best thing to ever happen on Mad Men.

Arsenic Pie: Didn't he try to write an episode of Star Trek or am I imagining things? I loved the tap dancing scene.

Clovis: I want him to get it published and then rub it in Pete's face by asking for an endorsement quote for the dust jacket.

Arsenic Pie: He should get an Emmy for that. Oh poor Ken Cosgrove.

Maggie: So, question.

Arsenic Pie: ?

Maggie: Did you all think the season ended on a hopeful note for Don?

Arsenic Pie: I think so.

Maggie: With everything else in free fall, at least he seemed to be opening up to his kids.

Arsenic Pie: He's losing all of his material stuff, but I think he might be able to connect with his kids on some level.

Clovis: I think it ended with him (almost) at rock bottom, almost becoming Dick Whitman again. Whether or not he still has more to fall, I'm not sure.

Arsenic Pie: And his relationship with Betty has improved since the hate sex.

Maggie: But remember how we felt at the end of Season 1, the hopefulness of the Kodak carousel speech? And then that obviously didn't take.

Arsenic Pie: The thing we know about Don is that he can always bounce back.

Clovis: He can bounce back because he always has the trappings of what he believes makes him the impressive man. He's now losing those things.

Maggie: Excellent point. Do you think he could pull a Dick Whitman and now and just leave it all behind and reinvent himself?

Arsenic Pie Right, but I think he has the intellect and fortitude to rise above things, even if he isn't an important Manhattan ad exec. He's done it before. It took major cahones to pretend to be Don Draper in the first place.

Clovis: I think he could, but I don't know if he will. He values himself only in how others see him. He may not be able to pull himself back together without the encouragement of his own youth.

Maggie: I honestly don't know if he would be willing to abandon his kids.

Clovis: Well, Sally maybe. The other two? Who knows?

Maggie: He has had a couple kid revelations this season, like when he took Bobby to the movies.

Clovis: What are their names again? Billy... something.... ;)

Maggie: Sally, Bobby, and Gene.

Arsenic Pie: I feel like if he's more centered if he has people depending on him and he cares about them in a real way, not in an "I have to" way. Well we only care about Sally.

Maggie: Don's just going to return them to the SC&P Prop Department, let's be honest. *shakes head* 

Arsenic Pie: Sally's the only one worth keeping.

Maggie: I dunno, I kind of like Bobby.

Clovis: Literally, since the others have been played by multiple actors.

Maggie: He had some interesting things in the Planet of the Apes episode, he seems like a good kid.

Arsenic Pie: I like the new Bobby. I hope he sticks around. Although he looks like a Brady kid to me. He looks like Peter Brady and Opie had a love child.

Clovis: Somehow Sally has grown into a teenager and Bobby is still perennially 8 years old.

Maggie: I....never really paid attention to what he looked like to be honest. Do we think this is it for Don and Megan?

Arsenic Pie: I didn't even know they had a new Bobby until I looked it up. I hope so. I'm tired of Megan. I know what her purpose is on the show. But she is really boring.

Clovis: I was never a big Megan fan. I know she isn't going anywhere because Matthew Weiner is obsessed with her, but I do hope this is the end of the marriage.

Maggie: Huh, I always liked her. Mostly because she didn't put up with Don's shit....at least the stuff she knew about.

Arsenic Pie: I liked her on that level -- the not putting up with Don's shit level -- but I feel like she's the least interesting of the female characters. Yet she gets the most screen time.

Clovis: Agreed. 

Maggie: Also, she's Canadian.

Arsenic Pie: Yes, I caught that. Since they mention it.

Clovis: Did we really need a year of her quest to become an actress at the expense of Peggy and Joan? 

Arsenic Pie: All the time. I fucking love her mom, though. If for nothing else, Juliette Binoche as Marie is pretty classic.

Maggie: Some follow through with Joan would have been nice. I assume she got Avon, but really they needed more of THAT this season. More Joan, plz.

Arsenic Pie: Yeah, WTF happened with Avon? They just dropped that plotline.

Clovis: OMG SPEAKING OF MOMS - How much did we love the Mother Overboard development? 

Arsenic Pie: Did she land the account or what? OMG PETE'S MOM OVERBOARD!!!!!!!!!!

Maggie: Apparently, Matthew Weiner thinks it's obvious to the audience that she got the account.

Clovis: I seriously LOLd at that, you guys.

Maggie: That was ridiculous (Pete's Mom) Poor Pete, he is never going to be able to travel ANYWHERE by air or sea.

Arsenic Pie: That was some legit Downton Abbey realness. PEOPLE DO NOT FALL OFF BOATS. 

Clovis: RIGHT!!!!! Maggie: Actually.... It happened on a cruise ship I was on.

Arsenic Pie: Are you serious?

Maggie: Yep.

Arsenic Pie: Did they die?

Maggie: That's the assumption.

Arsenic Pie: Hahahahaha. Omg.

Maggie: If you are in the middle of the ocean and someone comes up missing...

Arsenic Pie: Holy crap.

Clovis: It still happens. proof:

Maggie: I don't think it's actually that uncommon.

Arsenic Pie: Maybe not uncommon, but rare.

Maggie: Especially on cruises with older people. Oops, there goes Grandma!

Clovis: You have to admit, though, it's totally something this show would do. It veers from ultra realism to total absurdity sometimes.

Arsenic Pie: I feel like Pete's mom is going to show up in Venezuela. With a cabana boy.

Maggie: What is the deal with her marrying Manolo??

Clovis: Who's name wasn't even Manolo!

Maggie: Do we think he married and then murdered her for her money??

Arsenic Pie: I just figured Manolo was after her money.

Maggie: I didn't really get what was going on there.

Arsenic Pie: Which Pete and Bud aren't going to let him have.

Clovis: Or because Manolo wanted to stay in the US. Arsenic Pie: If she even has any. Clovis: After all, Manolo knew that Pete was paying all Mother's bills.

Maggie: True. Arsenic Pie: He had to know Mother really didn't have money, or didn't have control of the money. Maybe he's a psychopath.

Maggie: But then why would he marry her? That whole thing was so weird.

Arsenic Pie: And as we know he is gay...

Maggie: Mad Men definitely became more soap operaish, probably because of Megan.

Clovis: Although I feel like that story's likely done. It would be American Horror Story level ridiculous to bring Mother back next season after spending the summer on Gilligan's Island or whatever.

Arsenic Pie: It's totes what happens on soaps.

Clovis: True.

Arsenic Pie: Why doesn't Megan just go to LA?

Clovis: I think she's going to.

Arsenic Pie: Like, she cold leave. No one's stopping her.

Maggie: I think so too. I do think they will have to split the show between LA and NYC.

Arsenic Pie: I was kind of pissed at her for telling Don his kids are screwed up. I mean they are screwed up.

Clovis: Don's pathetic "we'll be bi-coastal" excuse wasn't cutting it for her.

Arsenic Pie: No, she should just go.

Maggie: She instantly felt bad about saying that though. To be fair, they were in the middle of a fight.

Clovis: Yeah, but you know she's been holding that one in a while. She's been overly patient with the kids, Sally in particular, several times.

Arsenic Pie: Well, I can see how she might resent them. Like, Don's left her alone with the kids several times. Several times when she'd been expecting him to be there. And Megan's not really cut out to be a mom. And doesn't want to be, really.

Maggie: Yeah, I thought it was a totally understandable and realistic comment to make in that situation. And so was her response immediately after.

Clovis: Yeah, agreed.

Arsenic Pie: I still want her to leave. ;)

Clovis: I think Megan's generally a nice person. I just am kinda at a loss for what else to do with her story, you know?

Maggie: I guess we'll find out next year!

 Arsenic Pie: There's nothing you can do with her, really. She's nice and good.

 Maggie: Maybe she'll get hit by lightning.

 Arsenic Pie: And that's about it. Or STABBED

 Clovis: HAHAHAHA. By Pete's mother

 Maggie: Or kidnapped.

 Arsenic Pie: Back from Venezuela. AND OMG SHE MISTAKES MEGAN FOR TRUDY.

 Clovis: With Manolo's twin.

 Arsenic Pie: AND STABS HER.

 Maggie: I would watch that show.

 Arsenic Pie: I would watch the shit out of that.

 Clovis: Agreed a thousand times.

At this point, Maggie Cats had to leave the chat in order to work on her Syfy movie draft, which I can't yet  reveal all the secrets of, but I can say that it involves rabid snakes invading Lake Superior. Yes. Rabid. Snakes. You're welcome, America.

Clovis: I totally want to hear what you think of the whole season.

Arsenic Pie: Well, I think it was better than last season. And plenty of OMG and WTF moments to go around. I live for those. But I felt like there should have been more Joan and more Betty.

Clovis: Agreed.

Arsenic Pie: I liked that we saw a lot of Peggy.

Clovis: The women characters are so much more interesting than the men, I think.

Arsenic Pie: But honestly...less Megan.

Clovis: HAHAHA totally. I didn't like how last year became The Megan Show.

Arsenic Pie: Legit. I'm sure she's nice and all, but less Megan. It was The Megan Show. I don't hate her, I just think the other female characters on the show are more interesting. I did like how they focused on Sally. Because she kills it on that show.

Clovis: I feel like Matthew Weiner was tricked out over January Jones and so gave her all this screen time that she hadn't earned because she's not that great of an actress. Then when Jones got a boyfriend that wasn't Weiner, he found another actress to obsess over. Sally is totally the character that you just want to see what happens to her. Like, I really want to see a postscript with a 60-year-old Sally in the modern day and see what becomes of her life.

 Arsenic Pie: I feel like he's unnecessarily mean to Peggy. Sally will be divorced three times. With four kids. Three of whom hate her.

 Clovis: Exactly. I feel like sometimes Peggy really gets written as the Ball Buster or something.

 Arsenic: I feel like JJ is a better actress than Jessica Pare. The thing is, Peggy isn't even a feminist. She wants to get married and have kids. She just can't. Not a feminist in the traditional sense.

 Clovis: Yeah, I probably agree. And I don't think JJ is that great. Jessica Pare just doesn't have a lot of talent aside from looking pretty and playing one or two rote emotions. Yeah, true on Peggy.

 Arsenic Pie: I don't even think JP is that pretty, honestly. She's horsey. JJ is prettier.

 Clovis: It's true.

 Arsenic Pie: It is. Girl's got a horse face. Anyway, yeah. Peggy isn't the single-minded career woman who chooses work over family.

 Clovis: Seriously. She's getting by a lot on the fact that she speaks French and so has other skills to work with.

Arsenic Pie: She has no choice. If she wants goodies she has to earn them. I get annoyed when she speaks French. It's like they think we forget she's French so they have to remind us.

Clovis: Exactly. Plus, she's willing to do whatever for a man. She was all "Oh, you want to live in a hovel but give me babies, Abe? Okay!"

Arsenic Pie: But Juliette Binoche is hysterical. She is. She will bend over backwards for a guy, unless it's Pete.

Clovis: Haha. Pete.

 Arsenic Pie: Hahahaha. Pete.

Clovis: You screwed the pooch on that one, buddy. 

Arsenic Pie: Eventually, I will feel sorry for Pete. That day has not arrived.

Clovis: God I hate watching Pete and his tantrums. I mean, I like how he's written because it's good that the audience is allowed to dislike him and he is given depths. But dude.

Arsenic Pie: I felt so bad for his mom. He was so mean to her. I don't even dislike Pete. I think he's hilarious.

Clovis: Can I also say that I just really want Bob Benson to totally smack Pete down?

Arsenic Pie: Oh, totally. Bob Benson is my new hero. That actor reminds me of Jason Sudeikis so I have a hard time taking Bob Benson seriously.

Clovis: Vincent Kartheiser does a really wonderful job of showing how false Pete is when he's trying to be smarmy. He also plays Pete as someone who totally idolized Don Draper without understanding that he's looking in the wrong direction of history. Ironically, Bob is the character that is most like Don, but is doing Don Draper better than Don Draper does right now.

Arsenic Pie: They should make a Bob Benson action figure.

 Clovis: I would buy that action figure. Especially if it came with the self-help records.

Arsenic Pie: And the headphones. Someone put us in charge of AMC merch.

 Clovis: Right?!?!

 Arsenic Pie: I love how Bob is another Don Draper, and it disgusts Pete so much to meet people like Don and Bob. Because as you say, Pete has had everything handed to him. And Don and Bob may lie, but they work for what they have.

 Clovis: And Pete sees them as being not worthy because they aren't the right kind of person.

 Arsenic Pie: Yes, and also because he's puritanical and sees himself as the moral center. Whereas everyone else is morally bankrupt.

 Clovis: Despite being equally as bankrupt as everyone else.

 Arsenic Pie: Or more so.

 Clovis: "Know thyself" is not advice he ever thought worth taking, clearly.

 Arsenic Pie: Pete justifies everything in his head, and when things go wrong for him, then he thinks other people are out to get him. Like, he would not take the time to get adequate care for his mother, so he hires Manolo. Then blames Bob for things going haywire.

 Clovis: That's totally his MO - take the easy way out that will get him the most benefit for the least work and then never accept responsibility. That particular track was brought out most i thought when he was one of the biggest advocates of prostituting Joan out so that they could get a wealthy client.

 Arsenic Pie: Oh, he was all for that. And Don was against it. Don is the only guy in that office who has never hit on Joan. He either doesn't sexualize her or he respects her, or both. Well maybe with the exception of Bert Cooper, but I doubt his engines fire anymore.

Clovis: Exactly. The one time he sorta kinda did (when he took her out to drive around in the jaguar) even then it wasn't really something he was aiming for. And Joan, to her credit, refers to Don as "irresistible", but can resist him perfectly fine herself because she knows what it would be like to be with him.

Arsenic Pie: It's so weird how he's never disrespected her, when practically every man disrespects Joan. 

Clovis: I wonder if that's because, despite his own treatment of women, he knows what it's like to be around women who have to work for afford their lives.

Arsenic Pie: I feel like he respects Joan, and he doesn't respect women in general. But he doesn't respect Peggy.

 Clovis: I mean, Joan's no prostitute, even that one client aside, but there are similarities. Yeah, true. But he kinda does - he values her a lot. He just doesn't know how to show it. His need to manipulate her always wins out.

 Arsenic Pie: He treats Peggy the way he treats his male colleagues. And Peggy takes it personally.

Clovis: My favorite scene in the entire series so far is the one last season where she tells him she's leaving and for the first time, he actually shows affection to her, partially as a tactic, but also because he knows that he's lost her and he'll never get her back, really.

 Arsenic Pie: I guess I should say he doesn't treat Peggy with the same respect he shows Joan. He won't. Don was her mentor and he didn't give her what she felt she was entitled to. Now I think she's just going to take it. Instead of waiting for a man to give it to her.

Clovis: I hope so. I mean, It's easy to make Peggy the stand-in for feminism when, as you say, she isn't, really. But she's one of the characters that I really like, so I really want her to come out on top of this. 

Arsenic Pie: She's way not a stand-in for feminism. I was really hoping things would work out with Ted. Then I realized what a tool he is.

 Clovis: What about that massive turn around?

 Arsenic Pie: She's the Edith.

 Clovis: It only took him, what, half a day after sleeping with Peggy to be all like "shit, I've got to go to California. Haha, she so is.

 Arsenic Pie: Ikr. First he was like, "I don't love my wife. I love you." Then he figured he had to stay with her. Out of what? Pity? Inertia? I feel like Peggy can't catch a break.

 Clovis: Little of column A, little of column B?

Arsenic Pie: Maybe.

 Clovis: I also found it interesting that this is the first time we've seen Peggy really play up her sex appeal. Arsenic Pie: HAHA I LOVED THAT

 Clovis:  Peggy NEVER toys around with sex, probably because of what happened with Pete.

Arsenic Pie: When she walked into that office full of dudes. 

Clovis: But she did this time and did it FULL FORCE

 Arsenic Pie: AND SHE WAS DRESSED LIKE A PLAYBOY BUNNY. No, she is all business, all the time. I thought that was awesome. She owned that shit. And you know it is prolly the first time people like Cutler took any notice of her.

 Clovis: Yeah, exactly. Also, fucking Harry Crane. That guy can't resist throwing in a stupid, sexist statement, can he?

 Arsenic Pie: No, he really cannot

 Clovis: He refers to every woman as a "sex kitten" if they do anything more than be dumpy. 

Arsenic Pie: I like how we've never seen his wife. Like ever.

 Clovis: That said, I actually kind of like Harry. I just think he's a putz.

 Arsenic Pie: Harry's an idiot, but a lovable one.

 Clovis: I know, right? We've seen the secretaries he's slept with, but never his family.

 Arsenic Pie: Supposedly, he has a wife. I don't think we've seen Ken's wife, either. We've met Trudy.

 Clovis: And you just know that he was angling to become partner so he could run the LA office. Now I guess he's out of that running.

 Arsenic Pie: We've met Trudy a bunch. Nah, there are too many sharks in that office for Harry to be in charge of anything. He doesn't have the balls.

Clovis: I love Trudy, BTW. But then, it's Allison Brie, who everyone loves.

 Arsenic Pie: Who doesn't love Allison Brie? No one. That's who.

 Clovis: Only a fucking monster, that's who.

FUCK YOU, SARAH MACLACHLAN.

 Arsenic Pie: HER LAST NAME IS CHEESE. A DELICIOUS CHEESE. I also love Trudy. I loved it when she kicked Pete out.

 Clovis: I KNOW RIGHT!!!

Arsenic Pie: SHE WAS SO PISSED.

 Clovis: I know we haven't seen everything from her perspective, but she's also the only one who's kicked out the husband and not given a fuck about it. She's been all like "screw you guys, I'm going home" over this and content to raise her kid on her own.

 Arsenic Pie: And she was one of the most conservative and traditional women on the show. At least, that's how she was presented. She did her little early 60's housewife thing. She even told Pete when she kicked him out that she'd expected that he'd cheat on her.

 Clovis: She's barreling into the 1970's full steam ahead.

 Arsenic Pie: She is Trudy. Hear her RAWR. It's going to be all Garp, all the time at that house now.

Clovis: For realz.

Arsenic Pie: Fo shiznit.

At this point, both Clovis and I had to leave the chat in order to don our parkas and grab our harpoons en route to Siberia to save some wayward nerpas, who were in an advanced state of distress.

EHERMAGEHRD. THA CUHTE!